My LGAT (Large Group Awareness Training) experience: Millionaire Mind Intensive May 11, 2008
Posted by Niels in : Personal , trackbackAfter being dead-set against (actually, just plain scared of) Large Group Awareness Training programs like Landmark Education, the Kairos Foundation, and so forth, I accidentally attended one over the weekend and watched them take well over a half-million dollars from the pockets of their unwitting participants. It was appalling.
The Millionaire Mind Intensive “seminar” was held last Thursday-Saturday here in Seattle. It’s a free three-day experience that’s marketed as a way to turn your financial life around, but is actually a three-day long series of sales pitches and upsells. I’d heard from friends around the world that the these people (the MMI is put on by T. Harv Ecker’s company, Peak Potentials Training) were some of the best in the world at mass room sales (aka platform sales), so Craig and I signed up to attend. I spent a year doing platform sales for Pickup 101 and I’m interested in sales anyway, so I was really excited about the event. We got a lot more than we bargained for.
The first day didn’t disappoint. The seminar leader immediately started building compliance by getting the audience to answer questions out loud and raise their hands on command. Soon they were finishing his sentences for him. I was amazed at how quickly 500 adults could be turned into mindless automatons, unquestioningly following every instruction.
He also did some of the most beautiful inoculation I’ve ever seen. There’s an idea in sales that if you bring up an objection and refute it before your prospect thinks of it, you make the objection disappear in his mind. So early on in the seminar, the leader told us, “This weekend will push your comfort zone, and your brain often reacts in one of two ways: by rejecting the message or rejecting the source of the message. I just want you to be aware when that’s happening.” Nice move, any criticisms an audience member thinks of are now immediately discounted as a meaningless reflex reaction. The particularly brilliant touch was what came next.
“It’s going to be a long weekend, so I know people will get tired. And some people will start complaining: ‘My leg hurts, my back hurts, my eyelashes hurt, this information doesn’t make any sense.’ You know what I tell them? I tell them, ‘Thanks for sharing.’” And just like that, the audience is now inoculated not only against any criticisms they think of, but any criticism anyone else in the room brings up. Scary brilliant.
By the time the first sales pitch rolled around, the seminar leader had complete control over the audience. “We have a special price on this book today; it’s an at-seminar special.” He paused and asked the audience, “A what?”
“An at-seminar special!” they shouted back. It was one of the best closes I’ve ever seen. By the time he said, “First come, first served”, people were running to the sales tables in the back of the room.
Unfortunately, Craig and I had other commitments, so we left Thursday afternoon and skipped Friday. But we came back on Saturday to see the big pitches for the most expensive packages.
The red flags were immediately apparent when I came back on Saturday. The mindless obedience to commands, the feelings of euphoria, the complete lack of inhibitions - I had walked into the middle of an large group awareness training (LGAT) session.
I became interested in LGATs a few years ago (see my old post: The Landmark Forum Cult) when I had some friends report positive experiences with Landmark Education and the Kairos Foundation/More to Life Weekend. After their glowing reviews, I started reading more about LGATs, learning that by leading people through extreme emotional swings you can induce a sense of euphoria and connectedness while simultaneously lowering inhibitions and encouraging more impulsive behavior (often reframed as a newfound sense of freedom).
But hearing the effects of an LGAT described in a journal article doesn’t compare to witnessing one in person. I never would have imagined that grown adults (though there were some children in the room, to make things even sadder) could be so quickly completely stripped of their mental defenses. I watched people respond like Pavlovian dogs, chanting, clapping their hands, waving their arms, answering questions, completing sentences, dancing with no inhibitions.
When it came to the emotional part of the day, the leader had no problem breaking people like Ming vases. There were tears all over the room, after which the leader brought everyone back up, made them feel good again, and then took us all back down one more time before bringing everyone back up.
I should mention that while I think it’s a wonderful thing to teach someone to share their emotions, I find it appalling to exploit these huge emotional swings for a sales pitch. By the time we linked arms around the room for a sing-a-long, I saw some people whose states of consciousness were so altered I would have sworn they were drunk had I seen them anywhere else.
And of course, after this came the big sales pitch. Craig and I figured they would be working their way up to selling a workshop for a few thousand dollars. It was a free weekend, after all, how big a sale could they possibly expect to close?
Thirty thousand dollars was how big. I felt sick. Thirty thousand dollars! Bring people who are bad at money management into a room, strip them of their inhibitions and mental defenses, and then convince them to make an enormous impulse buy. It’s like shooting fish in a barrel. When the leader suggested using their childrens’ college savings to send them to his “University of Light” I thought I was going to throw up. What a scam.
But the audience was completely bought in. In three days, I’m sure Peak Potentials pulled somewhere between half a million to a million dollars out of that room. I doubt a single person came to the free seminar on Friday with even an inkling that they would be $30,000 poorer three days later.
At one point, the speaker read one audience member’s question back to the audience: “My spouse is trapped in a middle class mindset and thinks all this is voodoo. Should I take Quantum Leap [the $30k package] alone?” In unison, the audience shouted back, “Yes!”
I’m still trying to process what I learned from the event. What made it so sickening to me? I used to say that the difference between persuasion and manipulation was intent. But I really believe the seminar leader believed he was helping people. Is it that he’s taking money from people who can’t afford it? But I’d be much more supportive if he was convincing the audience to send their children to college. So is my objection just the fact that I think Peak Potential’s courses are worthless? Because who am I to impose my values on someone else’s purchases? Craig thinks it’s the bait and switch, that people came expecting a course on money management and were instead sold a $30,000 dose of temporary euphoria. But I’d still be appalled if the courses were sold completely transparently with the same sales tactics. And I can’t even say it’s the sales tactics, because every salesman out there uses the exact same techniques on a lesser scale to make people buy emotionally. If people bought rationally every time we’d never have buyers remorse.
So I don’t know. The best thing I can say is if I ever start asking myself these questions for any practical reason, it will be time to back off and reexamine whatever I’m doing.
Comments»
Scary, but very interesting. I definitely have an interest in this element of social influence, and it seems definitely up your alley given your PUA background.
If you go that road, at least some of us will call you out.
Will you listen if we do?
Super interesting. I’d like to think it couldn’t happen to me. … but I had an intelligent friend who was super into Kairos.
Ever been to the vacation package places?? I’ve been through the ringer a few times. Never bought anything, and you really do get legit free packages for listening to their spiel. I’d love to hear your informed analysis of the sales techniques.
Timeshare pitches and vacation package sales pitches are definitely on my to-do list once my schedule opens up a little more. I went to a timeshare pitch a few years ago and remember being impressed, but didn’t know enough about sales to know what to look for. I’m really looking forward to going to a few in the future.
Darius: It’s a value thing. If he is getting real value from the time he is spending, who can say.
Niels: My ex-wife sold a these for two years. She was actually quite good at it, and reported to me that by and largely it’s pretty reputable.
I agree, the moral line gets fuzzy very quickly. On the one hand, you’ve got the MMI where people who can’t afford it are being fleeced, and on the other hand you have organizations who sincerely believe they’re helping the world and operate as a non-profit to allow people to go through their programs as cheaply as possible. If the latter group was to sell a workshop transparently “Come to camp and experience a temporary state of euphoria!” to someone that could afford it, I wouldn’t have much of a problem with it at all. (Though I should point out that there are a lot of anecdotal reports of people having emotional breakdowns as a result of their LGAT experience.)
Sadly, you learned and applied the same sales techniques to get money from desperate men… under a more noble intention that you wanted to help them. Yeah RIIIIIIIIGHT!
So I noticed that you have a link to Millionaire Mind web site, in which you get money for each click. I don’t mind you getting money from this, because of your financial situation, but isn’t it a little irresponsible to send your readers/potential fans to a site that will lure them to their financial death?!
Come on Niels, you are not working for that Scam Man in SF anymore! lol
PUA - sorry you feel that way
ScamMan - I don’t control the ads that Google feeds to my site, but I hope the rest of my readers see the irony in the situation. Besides, if Peak Potentials is going to pay for an ad-click, I prefer that they pay for a click originating from one of my readers who now believes they’re a huge ripoff.
I know a lot about Peaks. You have it all right!
Buyers remorse is unbelieveable and used as the next step in the sales process. The mid and back end courses have a lot more content but there is a lot of seminars that are just set up for delivering a compliant audience to teams of shady wheeler dealers types with get rich proposals. A lot of people are drawn into this for a lot of good reasons and left holding the bag. The lesson to be learned too late is that not everyone should be trusted!
Awesome writeup - really interesting stuff. I didn’t know a whole lot about any of this. I have never been to a seminar or sales pitch of any sort… I knew some of them were dirty but I had no idea the extent of the manipulation.
It amazes me that people see only what they want to see in a situation. I was at this very seminar, and since I actually attended for the whole program, I have place to speak as to the goings on.
Your breakdown of the activities is correct. YOUR ANALYSIS IS YOUR OWN INTERPRETATION. You are clearly skeptical and are content to teardown others and their intentions rather than seeing the good that can come from a situation.
You may be so uncomfortable in your own skin that you feel Dancing is a form of being uninhibited. But I enjoy having a good time and don’t feel that clapping my hands and doin’ a two step side to side is bad. Don’t degrade others who are secure with themselves or who are at least willing to get out of their comfort zone, just because you feel that you are a geek. Try some self-esteem, you might like it.
It is irresponsible for you to expect the worst in people. If you had been listening and present, instead of formulating your negative Blog notes, you would have learned how to bring out the best in people. How do you know someone who spends 2K-30K for a course can’t turn their life around?
Did you report on the people who had lifechanging breakthroughs even though they CHOSE not to buy any future courses. Didn’t cost them a thing, and now they are happier for having had the experience. But you don’t bother to explore that POSITIVE side of the equation.
You need to realize that truly impressionable people, or at least people who love to give excuses for why they don’t do anything with their lives, read your blog and take it as gospel. Even though its just your take on it. Like Tom (last poster) for instance. He’s never been, you’ve kind of been, but now he’s bought into your incomplete, Negative, assume the worst, analysis. I know of people who have read your negative slant and are worked up into a foamy frenzy based on the non-supportive attitude that you have, and YOU WEREN’T EVEN THERE FOR MOST OF THE PROGRAM. What place do you have to condemn when you only have part of the story?
Show some responsibility, encourage others to do the same, maybe they will stop wasting their money and learn how to manage their money.
By the way since when does a College Degree guarantee financial freedom? Do you know how many people have spent WAY more than 30K on a 4 Year college only to find that employers really don’t care. Motivated, accountable, responsible, self-sufficent people get jobs or better yet start their own business. Having Mommy and Daddy send you to school for a degree does not mean that you are the person a company needs to get things done. If you are too uncomfortable to clap your hands and high five strangers there is no way you are going to keep a business thriving. You’ll be too busy sitting at your computer writing Blogs about the big bad world that scares you.
Get Real.
Hi Matt,
The reason there is a term “LGAT” is because people have studied this as a phenomenon. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Group_Awareness_Training#Academic_analyses.2C_studies Niels didn’t make up this term, and his analysis is hardly inflamatory.
BTW, I totally “agree” with you about the 4 year college degree thing. I think we should make vocational schools more available, rather than maintaining public policies that encourage schools to push many students apply for college degrees before they are ready or interested.
Excerpt from the Wiki posting. “Although extremely critical of some LGATs, McWilliams found positive value in others, asserting that they varied not in technique but in the application of technique.”
I’m not disputing that a LGAT tecnique is used. I am commenting on the unfortunate assumption and framing that many “victims” and underachievers cling to.
If people are not creating a positive result based on their training it is because they aren’t choosing to do so. There are no “victims” only volunteers. (mind the context if you are going to resond to that).
I am personally aware of ones who had breakthroughs without purchase. They are People who had issues before the training and were able to take control, they are completely different nowadays, happier, healthier. Should we really discount the potential benefits on account of those who are looking for excuses to avoid discomfort, to not have to grow?
Hi this is foamy, &Frenzy is out back I feel that this entire program is about a numbers game/%’s if ten people buy one will achieve, The other 9 will pad the pockets of the leaders/trainers. (this is called leading the lambs to the slaughter) the #1 nibbles off the scraps left by leaders and trainers. This is a non educated but vastly experienced persons viewpoint and Ive seen these types of people before. There are some people in the world that can be hypnotised and ther are more than cant be. Who is the weaker individual? One that can be changed with callous and nd not consience- his interpetation should be scrutinized. You dont need a top closer salesrep to find success of any kind thats inside of you. This is fact based on facts through historical events and facts. Although manypeople will fall victims and disagree as they pay out the nose,and become a lamb,or at least one that will come to the defence of such questionable individuals.
Very interesting article. Me and my friend are going to starting a PUA company in the next year. Are there any sales tips youd feel comfortable sharing from your experience. Of course were going to do our own homework and read the books, but I’m curious if you have any sales tips, that are directly related to PU and teaching bootcamps.
-D
kennedyy@gmail.com
Why is this the only info I have found online which calls Peak Potentials for the scam that it is? I attended the Millionaire Mind Manipulation weekend last Spring, and find Niels account VERY accurate. Thanks for writing it! I’ve been passing it around to my circle of friends who have recently been invited to train with Peak Potentials Extreme Health Trainer/Scam artist Ronald Allen Downey.
Hi
I found this really helpful, having been offered a free place on one of these and being interested, and also noting my instincts telling me there’s something off about it. What really strikes me is the aggression of the people who have posted in favour of the training. I don’t really want to be successful if you end up living in a world where you’re framing others as losers, victims, non-achievers. To me that feels like a judmental and angry way of living in the world, and one which really misses the truly human uniqueness and beauty of people.
I work for an international NGO, and I also know that actually lots of people in the world are poor because climates are changing, because the resources they rely on, like rainfall, or fish stocks, or clean air, are becoming so depleted that their survival becomes impossible. Did you know that over 100,000 poor farmers in India have committed suicide over the last 3 years, because their livelihoods have been destroyed by “development”. The talk of victims might actually be appropriate here? Of course, we have to do what we can to look after ourselves, but to see the world in such an atomised, individualised way is, I think, a deception, and not good for the soul or the planet. I love this quote from Thomas Moore:
“For many years now, I have been advocating ordinary life as the proper arena for care of the soul. The extraordinary, the image of unlimited growth and success, is not characteristic of the soul, which is not satisfied with speed and striving. Growth is a fantasy of spirit, as you see in psychologies in which personal growth is the primary value. The soul thrives more in small, local settings, where ambition is toned down by other values like those of family, place, nature and peace.” (Thomas Moore, Dark Nights of the Soul, p.282).
Before you leap to attack this, reflect on the state of nature and peace in the world, at the moment. Maybe read Moore’s book.
What I would like to know is how some of these extreme programmes using brainwashing techniques can exist freely without some law to protect people???!!! I just spent a lot of money attending some LGAT scam and now they won’t give me my money back, because I saw right through the whole thing!!!
Thank you Niels for your clearly, well- put, yet non-inflammatory.
I am very glad you have put this together.
To Matt’s comments (and to others who post very angry replies), you are just really showing that you’ve either been ’sucked in’ which is fine if it is what you want, or you a a Peak Potentials plant.
Here are my comments:
It is not unreasonable to have a time limit on cancellation. I’m ok with that. My disappointment was in the customer service rep coyly (I realized later) avoiding letting me know I could still get a refund if I paid the cancellation fee. In case you think that is confusing, let me elaborate:
I bought a course and my joby was paying for it. It was all good. A few weeks later my boss said they could not let me have the time off for the course because of a time crunch/deadline issue.
When I had bought the course I asked the seller behind the desk at the event I attended about the cancellation policy who happily informed me that I could certainly get a refund within 10 days.
In those 10 days my boss assured me the funds were approved and it was ok to take this course. So I kept it.
When the work deadline issue came up I was distressed because I knew it was past the 10 days. I did not have a copy of the registration form anymore because it went to the finance office (in a different part of the city) at my job. I called PP and spoke to the service rep describing my situation saying I knew it was past the 10 days cancellation so what else were my options. The rep proceeded to tell me what other courses I could take. The problem was none of those were relevant for my job so my job would not pay.
When I hung up I thought about it, and did some online research etc. and it led me to eventually discovering that I could cancel in 3 months and pay a $300 cancellation fee. Fortunately for me, I was still within the 3 months. I was surprised the rep at the booth or on the phone did not tell me that. I decided to pay the fee and get the thousands of dollars back. And I am ok with paying that fee - I think companies should have things like that to discourage ‘quitters’ but since I did ask both reps about my options and neither commented that cancellation could take place in 3 months it does seem unfair because looks like PP was trying to hold on to my thousands of $ in tuition and not really help me.
I have taken 2 PP classes and my honest summary is they teach good principles but not only fall short of living up to the ethical standards you would expect, but they also have a very ‘money lust’ attitude - which causes them to have very poor customer service. And I am not just basing my comments on the customer service on these two events - I have had numerous poor service encounters with PP and about only 2 good ones. And apart from this call to cancel, all my other calls have been basic questions about things I needed for planning my trips to these courses. I really thought they would have been more helpful.
During my first class I observed but still wasn’t sure if I was right about their treatment of volunteers. But by my second class I knew they were not treating their volunteers right. I have done and seen a lot of volunteering in my life and PP takes advantage of their volunteers - at the same time yes, there are people who are willing to be taken advantage of. But having people like that ‘working’ for you just brings down the energy.
DO NOT spend several thousands of dollars on these courses just to be stuck in rooms that are packed with over 500 people - more like 600-700. PP obviously makes tons of $ (just think one of the cheaper courses is about $3,000 now multiply that by 500 (to be conservative) which is at least $1.5 mil. With that $ it is surprising that the rooms are uncomfortably packed. I do not mind people making money but I do mind customers and volunteers being treated poorly. Such overpacked rooms really make you susceptible to catching colds or viruses others have.
And by the way, for those two courses I took, while some of the content was good, I really think they were overrated overall. They try to hype up the audience before they hand out the review forms - a poor tactic.
If you are thinking of getting PP courses try to get similar ones cheaper elsewhere - like more in the hundreds of dollar range instead of thousands. They do exist and those are what I look at now.
I attended last weekends MMI event in SF at the encouragement of a group therapist. Her caveat was not to buy anything and I am grateful to her for that. I actually found the money management tools quite useful and the ‘therapy’ aspect really worked wonders for me, BUT that was coming on the heals of plenty of my own work. I smelt a rat at the first major sell. I found myself actually considering spending 2K on a course but being the cautious ’saver’ that I am I wanted to check in with my life line at home before committing (thereby losing the momentary special).
Its pretty clever and callous stuff. Anything seems like a bargain when it starts out at 8K and comes down to 2K. I was also very suss about all the funky looking volunteers. As the seminar wore on it became more obvious what was happening; the big emotional swings leading to the evening’s big sell. BUT I did get plenty of very helpful and stimulating things out of this seminar.
I recommend them to friends for the sake of checking out the LGAT experience (all that motivational euphoria) but tell them to leave credit cards at home! I believe many of the ideas are workable but….. it takes phenomenal effort and plenty of therapy to actually affect real change with ones mental blueprint.
I did witness T. Harv Eker (that name alone sounded alarm bells, why not John P. Smith?) during the arrow break exercise physically push an attendee into the experience and that really bothered me. As it went against all the ideas he spouted about self motivation. His comments about mormons bothered me, as did his belittling of meditating for years to achieve enlightenment. It showed that he does not understand the intention of enlightenment (its not the same as being financially free, but freedom of mind from ego experience and human suffering that comes with ego attachment)
Ho hum! I had a mini crash yesterday morning when I realized my life was still ostensibly the same, but I owned that and kept going. If I was less mentally competent or emotionally fragile, I don’t know how it would have gone! So take note.
My Aunt, Sister, my Girl and myself attended the May, 2009 MMI in Los Angeles. I agree with every aspect of Niels’ article. That said, I found some useful tid-bit information. As a music marketer, I was pegging their techniques as we went on through the weekend. Several times I reminded my relations that I admire their technique while I was mocking it. My Girl is a extraordinarily accomplished live and tv event producer and she just got plain annoyed at the amateur show. The Stars were pros, but the disorganization was astounding, although suble. And the Staff, there is nothing to say but that they were nothings with foul moods. The first day and a half Trainer Keiron Sweeney, not likable.
In the first 15 minutes of the first day he had us go and introduce ourselves to 10 new people. Well, I shot straight up to the platform and introduced myself with a firm handshake. You should have seen his eyes, it was as if this had never happened before and he was taken back by it. It sort of surprised me that it was unexpected that at least some aggressive “student” would want to meet his “teacher”, who theoretically is suppose to be the most successful person in the room. My Poor Dad taught me to always make friend with smarter people than myself and watch and learn. So, since they love the “=” so much, maybe Student = Mark and Teacher = ?. So my long weekend began.
When you cramp people tightly together and keep them going from 9am to 10:30pm over a number of days and use the emotional techniques well described by Niels, people lose their ability to resist. When I was in the US Army, I went through the SERE Instructor Course, and MMI uses a substantial number of similar so-called “soft cell” interrogation techniques. Niels mentioned Landmark Forum, Eker did also, as a former EST trained person, I nearly got my butt thrown of Forum (I was a guest of my then current girlfriend who was taking the training). Landmark Forum is a successor to EST and pussies in comparison. I mean I was not obnoxious, I just called them on their shit. They finally found a Forum trainer that had been an EST trainer to call me on my shit. We laugh our asses off when we went outside the room to do our EST thing. I got it, that they were just trying to make a living, so I decided to pretend to behave for the rest of the time. EST people are actually quite honest about it because if you don’t “get it” that’s your problem.
Anyway, the big emotional crescendo Sunday afternoon was: Harv was telling stories about his father and how it took a song on the radio to ask his 80 year-old dad why he never told Harv, “I love you son.” Then he came over 800 exhausted people, my dad died three week ago (And I am quite sure he is not lying and I do not mock him in this respect). So, they distribute lyric sheet to Mike and the Mechanics song “The Living Years” to all this 800 who then formed a massive circle around the room. Yes, we sang along with the public performance of the song. I almost cried for the loss of my mother - 35 years ago!
We took a 10 minute break then started down the road to the Quantum Leap Program - That $30,000 alluded to by Niels. It was discounted from a value of $100,000 to $19995 for the Gold and $54,000 to $9,995 for the Core. As sure as shit, some of their Marks, sorry I meant Students, literally ran to the credit card machines wearing the MMI t-shirts. A call to action, and the rest of us losers will remain losers because we fail to act. They weren’t going to, but it felt like the rest of us were going to get kicked out of the remaining of the seminar since we have no commitment to our wealth and happiness.
My favorite part was the breaking of the arrow. I eat that kind of shit up, break an arrow with my neck-bring it on, after all I volunteered to jump out of perfectly good airplanes when I was in the Army.
I would have to say all-in-all, I’m fine with the time I spent doing this, I did learn a few things that will help me. I am glad that all I spent, money wise, was for outrageous parking.
Hi Folks,
Well, I can say that I have done it all, or good part of it. To start with Graduate School at UCLA. That cost $70k (1992 dollars) for a brutal 28 month program. It increased my income by 30%, and my break even analysis, not considering risk and stress, was 10 years. After 10 years of Grad School, it is now starting to payoff. However, I am in a more stressful demanding profession, and I am more educated from the experience.
I participated extensively in Landmark Education after Graduate School after by best friend, ER Doc, recommended it. 28 months later, after a year of TMLP and about 2k. I have taken some time out from Landmark classes. It literally changed my life. The biggest change was being able to put trauma experience from my past into the past. They are a part of my history, but I was living as if I was going to happen again at any given moment. It was a huge shift. Life literally opened up, and I also had that 30% increase in income to help out.
My brother was involved with PP. So I went to the MMI. The only reason I signed up was to share the experience with him. I was intrigued by the camps. The MMI is very much as described, the hype, the bargain down seminar specials, singing, etc. I found that annoying, but it wasn’t going to stop me. I have completed 3 camps and multiple seminars. Cost about 18K
As a comparative analysis of all three experiences here is what they provided for me: I have put myself through 12 years of collage and even some of my undergraduate classes were taught in big halls with over 500 students, History and Finite Math to be specific. So this type of teaching format was not unfamiliar to me.
Of the three experiences, Landmark Education delivered the biggest bang for my buck, and for the impact it made on the quality of my life. If I could only choose one venue, even over Graduate school it would be Landmark. Mainly because it opened up my life to live it fuller. I would consider taking classes again, as I find the material delivered over a longer time period makes it more integrated. On the down side, the “Enrollment” aspect was an annoyance and I took it in stride. The cost for what it delivers is extremely reasonable. It may not be suited for all people, but for me it was extremely effective.
Peak Potentials was the most FUN! Yes, Warrior Camp was Fun, and a piece of cake after 28 months of grueling graduate school of getting up at 4:30Am and going non-stop until 10PM 6 days a week. So Warrior Camp was nothing new, the greatest benefit was the work by Warrior Sage who delivers very interesting self defense and personal growth work. Their work was probably worth all three of the camps combined. I found most of the work from PP, was very similar to what I had learned from Landmark Education only delivered in a very short period of time, hence with less integration as well. There is a lot of hype, and their is a lot of focus on money which is important but seemed rather shallow and self serving. I don’t foresee taking any more of their workshops as they are pricey for what they deliver and although fun on one level, annoying on another level. Oh yes, I got sick at every single event that I attended. Didn’t matter what I did to prevent it. Their events are “In your face” so to speak.
As to LGAT, large teaching formats are utilized for a lot of different education purposes and can be effective. I had large classes for many of my college and graduate classes. I recently attended Scott Kelby’s Lightroom seminar and it was effectively delivered at the LA convention center with about 500 people in attendance. It was fun, educational, effective, and not that expensive. Under $100.
The money machine does go on for all of them. UCLA gave us special “Clinical fees” and said that we could afford it, because we could pay it back after we graduate. This was instate tuition too. We were charged more then the medical students. But, hey, if we wanted the education and degree, we had to pay. We were grateful to be in the program, and they delivered a quality education.
Landmark is priced very reasonably and for me, it was well worth it and delivered. Their biggest resources is to have people recruited. I always wished they charged more for their work, and paid for advertising to get them off my back. But, it came with the territory.
Peak Potentials is a wealth game. It’s like an expensive vacation. You get a lot of fun, hype, singing along with their material and you pay top dollar for the experience. They do the “Seminar Special bargain down” sales. Was it worth it? Was it the best return on my dollar, not by comparison. Was the 2 week, 10K trip to India with the Warrior Sage Group worth it? You bet! But so was the 2K trip to Baja Mexico to photograph and yes, Pet the whales with Jim Cline Tours. Was it worth it? You bet. My next seminar . . . Anything with Scott Kelby, as he delivers good computer teaching in a large format setting, and Paul Renner African Safari tours, a very small setting in a vast country.
Thanks for this forum, I hope this may give some light and it was insightful to put these experiences next to each other. It’s just important to know what you are buying and how that is being influenced. Peak Potentials had the most hype, Landmark had the most pressure, and Graduate School was the most expensive straight up. A good laugh and reflection on LGAT is “Yes Man” with Jim Carrey. Very Funny indeed!
Maxine — with your graduate school education, maybe you could write this up with a better analysis?
Right now you start out as if you are going to do a cost-benefit analysis, but then end up with a description of the programs, with an emphasis on an intangible “value-for-money” metric.
I think a complete analysis would need to recognize and evaluate the other alternative pathways for coaching and support of your life goals.
D
[...] a post by Niels Hoven, about LGATs (Large Group Awareness Training); [...]
Very interesting comments on MMI and Peak Potentials. I found your description of the sales techniques informative and acknowledge the possibility of being swept up in a program beyond your means but, we all have free choice in this. When I took a few of these courses, I felt very comfortable picking and choosing what was right for my needs and pocketbook. It is a little unfair of you to be critical when you missed the value offered by attending only a small portion of the (free and yet very useful) program. Some course leaders may well be clumsy and too aggressive. Overall, however, my experience was positive and life changing. The vast majority of folks never go beyond that first program - so a lot of value is being presented up front with no financial commitment required.
Many (most) people have not had an opportunity nor has it even occurred to them to really examine their personal relationship with money and rarely do we get the the next level which is grasping that your partner’s relationship with money is likely entirely different. Sometimes that’s the reason you married the one you did! Not understanding the “why” of the way you spend or save or how you try control yourself or others with money can have far reaching effects on your life.
I took MMI (three times), Warrior and Wizard) and, with the exception of one really weird exercise, I felt in control of myself. The result: I came away with greater awareness and knowledge.
I would go so far as to say these experiences took me from being an “adult child” to a truly independent person, fully responsible for my own life, security and happiness.
Now and again I pull out my notes and review what I learned. Can’t say I experience some terrible hypnotic pull to go back for more; I’ve learned what I needed. And I would recommend attending the introductory event, taking the fuzzy-wuzzy stuff with a grain of salt and using what you will learn to build a secure future. RR
Thanks RR, you seem to have navigated the psychic terrain alright, and i totally believe that there IS value there — you have to bait the hook, as the homily goes.
What it comes down to is this: knowing that even you lost some control, and there are people attempting to upsell in a sophisticated way, would you recommend these events to less strong-willed members of your family?
Because you can’t make any assumptions about the strenght of will of the people reading your comment. So, you’re basically recommending it to us all, in the abstract. Even your loved ones.
Darius
To River Rock,
I would challenge your notion that [ but, we all have free choice in this] because when you are in a hypnotic state you ultimately have control, but you are also vulnerable to external influences that you may not be if you were in your “normal” state of consciousness.
It is irresponsible, manipulative, and dishonest to put someone in a hypnotic state then sell them something. If MM and Harv wanted to be upfront about their tactics then I wouldn’t have such a problem with it.
I attended MMI, I volunteered a few times including camps, and I have an opinion to share if anyone cares to read it.
We are very well trained by the school and society to believe that mind is the only tool we have, and this is not true. The inner guide is there , alive and alert to all the decisions we make. There is always a choice, it’s just a matter of being able to listen to it when it comes. People buy because they are facing their unfulfilled desires, in a way that doesn’t give them room to hide or to run away from that thought. When the solution is offered to their problem, they just take it. The company sells its own courses and packages, nobody ever will tell you to go to their competition to get a better deal. If you are there, it means you want to evaluate their offer. It is your responsibility to research and make up your mind. You have 10 days to cancel anyways, that is a lot of time to get out of your “hypnosis”. If you don’t cancel, you probably have a good reason to keep it.
I saw many people, in my volunteering activity, going through experiences that forced them to face their fears and learn how weak they (the fears) were, they let them go and got the skill to do the same with all the other ones. I saw people crying of happiness when they let go of resentments or hatred which brought them into illness, after several, maybe tens of years of “swiping them under the carpet”. The time had come, the problem was dealt with and solved just like that; in a weekend. No therapist, no drugs, no hypnosis; just the knowledge of how to take responsibility, and the opportunity to take action in a safe and professional conducted environment. I spoke to people who were not impressed with their own results and insights as well. Well, people who came to be transformed, had definitely another outcome than people who came to check out the techniques.
Is it too expensive? That is a personal matter. You can buy the same product, or at least with similar features at Walmart, at Zellers or at Sears; It is your choice.
If this “stuff” would be available in schools, and I mean in high schools so every child would have access to it regardless of financial resources, the society would look different. We would have less complainers, more achievers, less drop outs and more successful citizens. We would enjoy life in more harmony and less fear, and people would feel open and brave to confront their problems, solve them and move on. Some people stuff their frustrations and resentments one on top of the other until they get cancer or fall in depression, or get into alcohol or drugs to take a breath and forget about the night mare their life turned into.
Whatever way I find to connect and listen to my inner guide and higher self, I grab it with both hands and I feel grateful for it.
What you do with it, is entirely your choice and YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.
By the way, it is not the fact, but our own perception and attitude that make us feel happy or miserable.
The excitement, the interactive activities, shouting and dancing, felt very uncomfortable for me at the beginning, but I learned how introvert and uncommunicative I was. It was a good wake up call. The exercises fulfilled their purpose.
You can’t learn to swim if you don’t immerse yourself in water.
As a volunteer, in my limited experience, I had a great time; high quality people were in charge with the camps, the food was more than I could ever ask for - in a camp and the opportunity to serve and feel appreciated for the effort, was a good application of my christian background. We, the volunteers, had our own challenges and lessons too, for me, it was really rewarding.
@happy_canadian
I used to believe in MMI, but now I’m a big fan of The Secret. I think The Secret does a much better job. Also, the creator is much more successful.
Really, when you come right down to it, it’s all about how much you listen to your inner desires. There are things in the universe that are larger than we can understand, and it is only by tapping into these deep inner voices that we can find the wealth that is possible.
Sometimes you may have moments of doubt while you are reading The Secret. Whenever this happens you should look down at your hands for five minutes and appreciate how amazing hands are. The majesty of engineering that goes into the supple graceful curves.
It’s important to be uncomfortable. This is the only way to change your own behavior. You have to get together with other people who also read The Secret and discuss WHY you do uncomfortable things. I’m sure you will all come to the same conclusion that my The Secret friends came to… that it is part of the secret of the universe.
I hope this review is helpful for you as you consider how cheap it would be to buy The Secret today… It’s so cheap and yet will change your life and give you fulfillment by listening to your true inner spirit guide.
D
HAHA!!! Ohh man, these types of trainings and others like it are such HUGE scams. I had the luxury of attending a similiar 3-day event, it being a luxury cause i didn’t pay for it. All I have to say is “WOW”, and not world of Warcraft.
So the “Facilitator” within the first 30 min of being their pulls alot of the same techniques discussed. At the end of the first day your inhibitions are totally discredited, the second day concludes with your mind defenses being totally bypassed, by your own doing, and the last day concludes with you doing some more crazy new age mental make believe exercises that leave you feeling the fake “euphoria” that was intended all along. The constant emotional ups and downs almost became like clock work. This group follows the training up with a “graduation”, more like parading a bunch of zombies on stage who drank the cool-aid in front of their spouses, family members, and friends. This used as a marketing and recruiting tool to get you, the cool-aid drinker, to solicit how great your training was and how bad everyone else needs it.
Of course it doesn’t stop there, like a drug-pusher denying you your fix, they have you come back 3 days later for your “post-training”, which consisted of another emotional high and to convince you sign up for part 2 of your training! Yeah!!!! Of course their’s was no $30,000, only $700, but still, if you did sign up you are already in $1000!!! Then of course part 3 is $700 and then they offer couples classes and other non-sense. My uncle got crazy into this NEW AGE GARBAGE, and i say that with confidence because that is what it is and how i came to learn about LGAT’s like Landmark Education Corp and my local new age pushers “The Great Life Foundation”
Ehhhh…….All nonsense. If you fill a room with people and put a so called “successful” person on stage who can convince the crowd to lower their mind defenses so you can dangle riches and happiness at the end of the stick only to tell them some common sense gibberish and exploit them is completely SCARY and frankly should be against the law. It is brainwashing (Taking away somebody’s ability to be critical) and groups like this don’t even tell you that they are doing it!
So tell your friends that if they want to save alot money first off, and want what these con-artists have to offer, then read cheap garbage like The Secret and save the experiental training for when you feel like riding a fake emotional roller coaster only to experience fake “euphoria” or fake “enlightenment”.
Honestly how many people get rich from these PYRAMID SCHEMES? Yes, I called training like this a Pyramid scheme. It is a pyramid scheme because you get all these volunteers to who have been through the training to push it on you. They push it on you because they get another emotional high by being there again and seeing it happen, and then they tell you to go out and recruit for these trainings. Who is profiting from all this? Gee I would like to know? The attendees? Bah!!! Most will go home feeling used, and the suckers who buy into it will be out even more cash and will have lost their dignity on the way telling everyone else that they are so much better for having done it never generating more wealth or “happiness”. Instead they become recruiters and pushers for free, putting more coin in con artist’s pockets like T. Harv Eker.
There is always a risk that when people really, really like something, or it really resonates with them, that they’ll become zealots. This happens because they desperately want to share what they’ve gained with others. It comes from a place of genuine kindness and compassion, but it makes the organizations look weird, and can lead to accusations of them all being LGAT/cults.
I appreciate Niels’ review because he actually attended the course and is sharing his experience. He’s not telling other people they shouldn’t go, but he dislikes the methods used. I haven’t been to Millionaire Mind myself, so I can’t comment on the accuracy of his review, but my guess is that the reason that this is one of the few reviews critiquing this particular course is that most people love large group / motivational training, and like being sold to. It sounds like there is no confusion about the fact that the attendees are going to be sold to. And if they don’t like it, they can leave.
I believe this is the case with most group training programs. Certainly, it’s true for the variety of programs I have attended (and reviewed). They aren’t for everyone, but they can have immensely powerful benefits. And no one is forced to stay and be pitched.
There is also an element of brainwashing in these programs, but again, I believe this is invited by most of the participants. There is a difference between brainwashing for the purpose of installing new dogmatic beliefs, and brainwashing away existing beliefs that have been holding someone back from being who they want in life. The latter can be fantastic if it’s invited, and if it’s voluntary.
Like Niels, I think we could be asking better questions than “Is this an LGAT?” or “Is this a cult?” so I launched a site where people who have done a lot of this work can evaluate the programs based on trustworthiness, integrity, fulfillment on promises, marketing practices, value, etc. If you have a chance to visit it, I would love to hear your feedback on whether you think this is valuable information. One of the contributors is at work on her own review of Millionaire Mind so it will be interesting to see how her account compares to this one.
Huh. a program-review site. That is about as long-tail as it gets. Good luck Eleanor!
I am here now, mynwife is drinking the cool aid and is signed up for a $4,000 Internet marketing bootcamp where they promise you will walk out ofnthe 5 day course withna website alreadynearningh passive residual income, in othernwords no work. Not a bad idea except you can do this for 3.95 per monthnon manynhosting websites. And content to sell, Harv eckernsaidnon his infomercial broadcast to the room, don’t worry you can copy content from other sources. Hmmmm….. Something felt wrongnfor me with that. Any how I’m in the lobby waiting for the coolaidmeuphoria to die down so we can cancel andnput our 4,000 dollars in our financial freedom account and invest wisely, as theynsuggest in the first day.
Hope this helps others.
I just finished going to an MMI seminar. My dad asked if I wanted to come with him. Though I think that it can give people hope and help a lot of people, I did not like how close this seems to a cult. I thought that my dad and I would sit there for the first half day, look at eachother sideways, and go grab a beer or something, as he’s a pretty smart guy. They totally got him.
The weird thing about it was that my dad manages a conference centre, and he sees similar things come through all the time. I thought for sure that we would just laugh this off.
Strangely, Tin, my dad got taken for the same thing as your wife. They pitched this internet program on Saturday (yesterday) and he seemed interested in it. I was a little surprised. Didn’t think he seriously consitered it. Today, he called my mum and talked about signing up for it. And yes, like you Tin, I also thought that it was very strange that he said that you could just take things from other sources. Seems very morally-grey to me, and I questioned if this was legal.
I can definately see why someone would want to buy into this, and how it can help a lot of people. I didn’t care for how they gave their message out, though I did think some of the information was worthwhile. Most of the financial advice seemed good for someone who didn’t go to school for it, and the letting go of the emotional attachments towards money would be incredibly helpful for someone who has issues that relate to that. But again, I did not like how they gave it out.
I also didn’t like how they were constantly trying to upsell everyone the other seminars which cost up to something like $8 000. Assuming you don’t get the “At-Seminar” discount and the “Early Bird” discount. I get that they have to turn a profit for this, otherwise they wouldn’t do it, but it seemed very over-the-top. Brainwashing hundreds of financially irresponsible people, convincing them that they need this, and then charging thousands for dollars for it.
Wow! I am very glad I found this site. I came across a few others with similar info. I am attending the “free” Millionaire Mind 3 day training beginning this Thursday. I was a little sceptical when I saw at the bottom of the e-mail…….be sure to bring a 100.00 bill and a blank check……????? Usually any of these free info meetings are just a teaser to sell you a higher priced package so you can REALLY get the full benefit. I bought the book, Millionaire Mind, years ago but never read it. When I received the e-mail for the seminar coming to my area, it reminded of the book and pulled it out and started reading it. I havent finished it but, a lot of what I have read so far makes a lot of sense, so thats why I want to attend the seminar. I think I will still go and make sure I LEAVE MY CHECKBOOK/CREDIT CARDS home!!!!! And just get as much free info as possible and utilize it. I will be sure to keep my head and not get caught up in the “brain washing”……………thanks for posting
Thank you for writing such a wonderful and enlightening analysis of Millionaire Mind. What do you reccomend I read so that I don’t get duped by these scam artists?
Thanks it is much appreciated ;)
the Financial Times twice a week
I’m not sure you get what I mean.What I meant was where can I learn about the specific techniques that these so called gurus use so I can recognize them when they are being used on me so I don’t get duped? I’m thinking about starting my own blog soon where I will aim to expose these scam artists that are ruining millions of lives each year.