Ask Niels: How do I turn a friend into a lover? February 23, 2007
Posted by Niels in : Other , trackback
There is a girl I’ve known for about a year now, we TA’d a class together last year. At first I wasn’t that interested but over time I started to really like her. We were both kind of shy and awkward around each other, but the problem was that it just seemed more like a “business” relationship. Anyway that’s over now, I still see her at college a bit as we are in the same department, but I’m not sure what I should try and do now. I hear all the time that if you miss the first chance you should just forget it and move on, but is there any way I can make this work?
-Sean
Here’s what you DON’T want to do. Don’t just go and confess your feelings. If she’s not already attracted to you, telling her how you feel isn’t going to change her mind. The soul-baring confession to a girl who’s not attracted to you is what leads to this conversation:
“Oh, I’m sorry. You’re such a nice guy! You’re going to make some girl so happy and you’re going to be the most amazing boyfriend ever. Not for me, of course, but for some other girl!”
I’ve talked before about how attraction is instant. When you see a hot girl, you know right away that she’s attractive. You don’t have to go home and think about it. You say you weren’t interested in this girl before, but I’m willing to bet that you thought she was cute from the first second you met. What took time was getting to know her and beginning to see the possibility of relationship potential.
Attraction is also instant for girls. I’m speaking in generalities, of course, so there are exceptions, but for the most part, a woman knows from the first second she meets you whether you have any chance of ever sleeping with her, or whether you’ll be “just friends” forever.
Occasionally, though, you’ll get a second chance to make a first impression. That happens when your second impression is so powerful that she has to reevaluate her first impression. “Oh, this guy is sexier than I realized…” This happens with our students all the time. They take a workshop with us, go back to their old lives but as a new person, and everyone who knows them has to come to terms with how attractive they’ve suddenly become.
Flirt more. With her, but with everyone else, too. Stun her with how much other people enjoy being around you. Force her to reevaluate her first impression of you and therefore your relationship. Touch her when you talk to her. Touch other people when you talk to them. Carry yourself powerfully - don’t slouch. Lead others.
And finally, learn to open yourself up emotionally. Deep rapport is all about stripping away life’s BS and connecting with someone on the rawest emotional level. And once you’ve done that with someone, the relationship has to change. It simply cannot stay the same. But that’s a topic for a future post.
Comments»
if you have a window of opportunity, you have to step up. what advice would you give him on taking better advantage of first chances?
wow! good advice! i have experienced something similiar
I’ve heard the theory that men determine within the first few seconds/minutes of meeting a woman if he’s interested or not, but I really disagree that it’s that way for women. Maybe it is for some, but I do think that is the exception, not the rule. This sentence really rang false for me:
“…for the most part, a woman knows from the first second she meets you whether you have any chance of ever sleeping with her, or whether you’ll be “just friends†forever.”
My last two long-term boyfriends I didn’t pay any attention to whatsoever when I first met them, but over I time I noticed how charming, funny, warm they were and was won over. Attraction grew over time. Actually, now that I think about it, my two biggest crushes in life were much the same. I didn’t realize, “Wow, you are AWESOME” until I had known them a few months.
That isn’t to say there isn’t such thing as instant chemistry for women, too, but that’s usually what seems to get me in trouble! I’m much more wary of the ones who are too smooth, too good at first impressions.
You give great advice, Niels, overall! I like reading the blog. Just wanted to throw in the female perspective on this bit, though. I think first impressions are incredibly important, but do not think it’s a live or die type situation. If you strike out the first time out, it’s not a lost cause. At all.
I agree, though, if you’ve been put in the “friend zone” you are most likely NOT leaving…
urcute
ur cute
Anonymous… just the fact that you used the phrase “friend zone” moves me to second most of your additional advice…i’ll leave it at that lol
this isn’t related to your post, but I thought you might appreciate this:
http://wondermark.blogspot.com/2007/02/276-chance-encounter.html
Anonymous (who posted the link) - Bwahahahahaha!
I’m also a woman who’s currently dating a guy I didn’t find attractive the first time we met. It was in the middle our second group outing that I started to find him cute and awesome.
i guess so
Yup, I agree with the respective female readers; I believe women definitely need more time to develop an attraction towards men. However, I think that Niels is giving Sean sound advice. You still have a chance, Sean (but please kindly double check that she isn’t taken if you haven’t done so already). However, I’m a little undecided about the whole touching business, since it taps into the question of personal space. It’s common for flirting women to use touch when they are ready to let the man come closer emotionally and physically; however, women could potentially feel uncomfortable when it’s vice versa. This is especially the case if Sean has always kept her at arm’s length but suddenly decides to touch her (no matter how innocently). Personally, I’d recommend that before proceeding with the “innocent graze,” just shorten your interpersonal distance and pay attention to her response. For example, when you see her organizing her files at the general office, just walk up to her and stand a little closer than what you’re used to and ask how her semester is going. If she doesn’t move away, next time you could further close the distance (and maybe even touch her arm). Again, make sure you check her body language! If she averts her gaze or turns away or rubs her neck with the elbow pointed towards you, I’m afraid she isn’t interested …
Rubs her neck with her elbow pointed toward you?
I haven’t heard that one before.
Is it important which way the elbow is pointed?
I’m joking, but kind of not.
well… what I mean is that when women sense that the guy is coming on too strong and invading their personal space, they might potentially try to create some sort of barrier between them and the suitor … a defense mechanism if you will.
I think Neils and the women responding on here are both right. I think what the disagreement regards is a miscommunication of ideas.
First impressions are very important. We humans tend to form opinions of people very quickly. We don’t always even realize we’re doing it most of the time. Now initial attraction is like a spark. You can’t start a fire of burning desire without a spark, but a spark alone can not start a fire all by itself. So a fire needs a spark and fuel to start is and keep it aflame.
Guys that get in the “friend zone” probably did one of two things. 1. They never lit the spark 2. They lit it but were unable to fuel it properly enough to keep it lit. In situation one the guy just doesn’t spark the women’s interest. He may be very well able to add fuel (do nice things for her, listen to her) but without that spark he just becomes a good friend, with no realtionship potential. In situation two, it is likely that the guys first impression was good, but soon after he started acting different and the flame dies away.
Then there are the guys who a woman sees romantic potential in. Sometimes it happens really quickly. This happens when the guy can ignite the spark and really knows just how to make that flame grow and grow. These men can sometimes be intimidating though because they can turn out to be bad for long-term commitment (players). Now every woman is different in regards to how fast or much this attraction can grow. It can grow in a matter of minutes or sometimes weeks or months.
Keep in mind that I am only talking about attraction her. It is simply that emotional feeling a person gets when they meet someone they are interested in. It is something that we as humans have no control over. We can’t decide who or why we are attracted to somebody.
However, we can choose what to do about the feelings we have. Just because a woman feels attraction for you does not mean that she will get sexual intimate with you, although she will be far more likely to if she does. A women that likes you may never end up going on a date with you for many reasons.
Hopefully that clears some of this up. It’s hard to put some of these things into words.
A, you said “Actually, now that I think about it, my two biggest crushes in life were much the same. I didn’t realize, “Wow, you are AWESOME†until I had known them a few months.”
I think there is more to the story than this. It wasn’t like you just woke up one morning and had a completley different opinion of these guys. They were obviously doing things that built your interest in them over time. Some sort of spark was created at some point over those months which grew into that big old flame called a “crush”. The spark may have been ignited right away or maybe later on. But at some point something happened that made you interested in these guys as more than just friends, and that is what grew into your crushes on them.
Another thing to consider is that sometimes you don’t realize how much you like someone until some sort of event happens that causes you to realize just how much you like someone. This hapens to both men and women. Maybe a friend asks you “hey what do you think about him/her?” Suddenly you realize “hmm I never really thought about it, WOW I think I am really into him/her”.
This has happened to me many times. Something happens that makes me question my own feelings, and I suddenly feel more attracted, but am not sure why. Something probably happened that caused you to realize how awesome these guys were, but it was the result some spark you had that grew over time, not the event itself.
This topic absolutley fascinates me, so I am going to keep posting my opinions and experiences.
Alright, so why do first impressions mean so much? Our brains simply just work that way. A first impression can leave an imprint in the mind that will affect almost all future interactions. Now it is possible to change impressions over time, but it takes a lot more time to change a first impression than to leave one. I have been taught this since I was a child.
An impression is like a filter that all future interactions have to go through. If a first impression is good, than future interactions will be looked at more positively than if a bad first impression was made. These things are mostly subconscious, so you may not even realize you are doing this if you don’t catch yourself doing it.
Alright on to some examples. When a man sees a woman he finds physically attractive he will normally judge her positively before he even says a word to her. A man may even assume “she’s too good for me” solely off of a first appearance. That is a strong impression for someone you don’t even know.
When a woman first meets a man she usually gets an impression as well. Typically it’s his body language and personality that form it. Keep in mind that included in body language is his apperance, how he is dressed, groomed and takes care of himself physically. If the first impression is positive than it is either towards friendship or romance potential. One impression loeaves the woman thinking “he’s really cool”
the other… “he’s a really nice guy”.
well i must comment on this…these are just my random rambling about my personal experience… being the female version of the “nice guy” aka the “nice girl”. I LIKE nice guys… shy nice guys… of course they arent so shy after a while but they still initially hold on to that shyness- it never goes completely away. But i have to say that it is the personality most definitely for me… a guy from an outsider perspective may not seem all that physically attractive- BUT when you get to know him, this guy could be awesome and then that makes them seem all the more attractive… as i see it in the more important way. I’m the type of person to look for something more solid then a hookup so this is where i’m coming from with the cliche the looks wont last forever but the initial personality will. Here’s the killer for me… what exactly is the difference between he’s a really nice guy and he’s really cool? or should i ask what is really the difference between he’s just a friend, or he’s def a potential lover? I find it to be that indescribable x factor you just feel or aka the spark. The difficult part is, finding out if the other person mutually feels the spark, because if not- this is where we run into the being friend zoned thing and then its play the part time where acting like the “nice friend” kicks in. In hopes that that person will just one day wake up and realize what were they thinking being with all those losers when the prize was right ther all along… DOESNT HAPPEN! lol I dont just do the nice things thou for guys i am romantically interested in, but i also do it for the guys who i am on a platonic level with which might confuse me as far as the flip side goes. I have a friend who I sometimes think he might be into me, we’ve known each other for a long time and I see us as just really good friends. Sometimes I suspect he may see me as maybe a potential relationship although he hasn’t uttered a suggestion. He is such a good friend to me and id like to say i am to him too. He’s not bad looking, he’s awesome, and we always have so much fun and so many laughs. I’d like to think of it as a more sibling connection but with straight guy friends, is that possible for guys and girls to have and keep a just friends mentality thruout the whole friendship. Anyway I just dont have that x factor for him that attraction. And to be truthful I do not know why i’ve never seen him as a romantic potential. Sometimes I think that its that type of friendship that would make me happy and keep me happy, but I don’t have that type of attraction or interest for him and I truthfully it’d prob be nice if i did because he’s a nice guy and i usually go for the nice guys, but there’s something that is missing…I guess he mite consider himself one of those “nice guys” who listens to me, is there for me and a lot more. This all does have a point believe it or not…. and that point is that the whole guy and girl being friends thing seems to have way too many diff possibilities, outcomes, and complications. so yes i see a cute guy and i go OOO, but i will know as soon as i talk to that guy if there’s something there, and same goes for the not as cute guy….
Yes, Swiss, I agree. Women are not attracted so much to how the guy looks than to his personality. And something makes that spark fly, but it’s hard to describe.
I really think you sum it up here when you said “Anyway I just dont have that x factor for him that attraction. And to be truthful I do not know why i’ve never seen him as a romantic potential. Sometimes I think that its that type of friendship that would make me happy and keep me happy, but I don’t have that type of attraction or interest for him and I truthfully it’d prob be nice if i did because he’s a nice guy and i usually go for the nice guys, but there’s something that is missing”
Even though this guy posesses all these great qualities, you just don’t feel attraction for him. He’s a good guy but doesn’t know how to be attractive to women. I know that I was placed in the friend zone many times before. And I just couldn’t understand why women kept dating these guys that they complained about all the time, but would never go out with a nice guy like me who would treat them better.
Then I would obssess over this one girl, who I thought I might just have a chance with, only later to find there was no chance. It sucked. But Neils and the community he’s involved with want to help solve these problems. He wants to teach men to have that attractive confidence that allows them to be themselves and display their personality, rather than feel the need to lie or hide their true intentions.
I’m the anonymous that posted the first thing… let’s call me A1 from now on. ;)
Tambo said:
“I think there is more to the story than this. It wasn’t like you just woke up one morning and had a completley different opinion of these guys. They were obviously doing things that built your interest in them over time. Some sort of spark was created at some point over those months which grew into that big old flame called a “crush ”
Absolutely, absolutely, I agree with you! The only point I was disagreeing with Niels about was this sentence:
“a woman knows from the first second she meets you whether you have any chance of ever sleeping with her, or whether you’ll be “just friends†forever”
That sentence is false for (most) women. Yes, there’s such thing as immediate attraction right off the bat, but in general it can take a few months of knowing a guy before the attraction develops.
Example: the first time I met my boyfriend, he flirted with me but in my head I thought, “You seem nice, but I would never date you. I’m not attracted to you. There is absolutely NO spark.” At the time, I would have said that pilot light was NEVER gonna be lit…
Cut to three months later, I was completely head over heels “in crush” and blushing whenever we were in the same room together. I don’t know what happened in those three months, other than I got to know him better and found other things attractive about him than his appearance.
Now on the other hand, there’s another guy I was really great friends with. Very nice. Considerate. Creative. And sometimes I’d sit around thinking, “Why don’t I like this guy??! We get along so great?” but I just didn’t. He had been put in the “friend zone” and was not gonna leave.
I don’t know what the difference was? I’m as confused as anyone.
Maybe it has to do with self-confidence. Women are looking for that magical combination of self-confidence and niceness, which sometimes is hard to find. And then they just end up going with the self-confidence guy…er… and end up with assholes.
Tambo wrote:
“But Neils and the community he’s involved with want to help solve these problems. He wants to teach men to have that attractive confidence that allows them to be themselves and display their personality, rather than feel the need to lie or hide their true intentions.”
And that’s AWESOME. All I was trying to say is, don’t think that if you fucked up a first impression, you are doomed. Girls don’t “friend zone” guys off a first impression.
A1… ha ha that’s funny.
No, I agree that you are not doomed. However, as I was saying earlier, first impressions take longer to change than making them initially. Yes they can be changed but as you were saying:
“Now on the other hand, there’s another guy I was really great friends with. Very nice. Considerate. Creative. And sometimes I’d sit around thinking, “Why don’t I like this guy??! We get along so great?†but I just didn’t. He had been put in the “friend zone†and was not gonna leave.
I don’t know what the difference was? I’m as confused as anyone.”
So sometimes the impression changes, and sometimes it doesn’t. Also, a first impression can take a few seconds or a few hours to fully form.
Now I think a first impression actaully works more like this. The very first opinion you are going to form is going to be whether or not you want to spend more time interacting with this person. If the guy gives off a creepy vibe than likely you will not give him enough time to form a new impression.
If the vibe is good though, you will eventually have to realize why you feel he’s worth spending more time with. If he lit a few sparks you will likely spend more time with him because you feel somewhat attracted to him. Or maybe he was really fun to talk to and was really nice, but you would never date him.
I do believe that first impressions can change, but it’s far easier to just make a good first impression than to try and change it later. In my personal experience, I can’t think of a time where I was just friends with a woman who had no interest in me, and it later turned into something. Now I have dated women who started as friends, but even when we were just friends I knew there was some interest.
Ha, thanx for reading my blurb tambo…input is always good. My friend has had g/fs and he’s self confident but like i said that x factor btwn us that just isnt there. Actually one of his g/fs seemed jealous if thats the word to describe it… a mutual friend of his g/f and i was a blab and told me one day that when the g/f and he hung out paranoia would set in and she would worry what my friend and i would do when we hung out. We were never on dates lol, sure it would be us two but it wasnt like that- and she would think that perhaps something more was happening behind closed doors when we were alone and all that… so i guess some do see that connection- and perhaps she might have been a lil jealous of the deep connection we do have. As for friendzoning- lol my friend tambo i dont think anyone has been friendzoned more than i have… and i think thats a fact haha. So how do i get past that? lol
A1: “Maybe it has to do with self-confidence. Women are looking for that magical combination of self-confidence and niceness, which sometimes is hard to find. And then they just end up going with the self-confidence guy…er… and end up with assholes.”
Bingo. I think this is it, maybe the key to whole thing. First, be nice. Second, learn to be confident.
So what is confidence, and how do you learn it?
Hey Swiss. So you got friendzoned more than me, maybe… what’s your top score? lol I’m reminded of that movie “Just Friends” when I think of this conversation.
Yeah girls can get friendzoned too, but I think it’s easier for them to get out of it. Guys don’t really have as big of a distinction between friends and girls they like. For guys the distinction is more linear, their are girls they like more than others. I think a lot of guys have at least a little bit of interest in any of their female friends. The girl may not be his type, but he still won’t rule her out completley. I have wound up hooking up with female friends I swore to my friends I never would.
Maybe some guys do friendzone girls, but I think it doesn’t happen as much. It’s possible that the guys you liked may just have liked someone else more. It’s best not to wait on these guys, because while you wait you may be missing a lot of other opportunities. I had a female friend in college who just drove herself nuts over this one guy who she liked, and kept waiting on him to come back to her. It drove her nuts for a couple years, until she finally met someone else. All the while she could have just accepted that he was wrong for her and moved on.
So I think the best way to get out of the friendzone is not to get in it in the first place. Maybe YOU could use some of Neil’s coaching:)
LOL, yeah just friends is my favorite movie of all time- i have actually a facebook group called that. I always keep my options open, whether im crushin on a friend or not… i’m confident but i do second that i prob could use some of niels coaching lol… you spelled his name wrong tambo! lol but i guess i can forgive that since you used linear as an adjective, by any chance are you a math major? j/k but i try not to get in the situation where i’m tempted to hook up with a friend just because thats not how i roll, not that its necessarily a bad thing.
tambo, I think we’re on the same page now… it was just a syntax/word thing.
“Yeah girls can get friendzoned too, but I think it’s easier for them to get out of it. Guys don’t really have as big of a distinction between friends and girls they like. For guys the distinction is more linear, their are girls they like more than others. I think a lot of guys have at least a little bit of interest in any of their female friends. The girl may not be his type, but he still won’t rule her out completley. I have wound up hooking up with female friends I swore to my friends I never would.”
seriously, do guys have a little voice in their heads saying, “SPREAD THE SEED! SPREAD THE SEED!”
Yeah… girls don’t have that.
LOL
being “friendzoned” really isn’t a bad place to be, it leaves me with more options open. i don’t see any problem having many guy friends, but it does get tiresome when you don’t know how to snap out of that friendzone whenever you meet someone new and potentially interesting.
i have another point to make: men and women can never be “just friends” with each other because there’s always going to be some undercurrent of attraction and interest, regardless of who’s side its on. the guy or the girl, it will make no difference.
A1- Yeah we kinda do. It’s male biology. Read any book on evolutionary biology. Of course just because our bodies want us to does not mean we always are going to.
Swiss- What’s wrong with linear? Actually I’m a History major so perhaps I should have used a time-line like continuum.
nothing is wrong with linear- its much appreciated vocabulary thats all lol
I know lol